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American Politics and Trump End Times Haha Fuck Everything Faygo Not Fascism Thread

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15 minutes ago, sugarface said:

i guess i was thinking about the irony of a confrontational post about an article advocating a non-confrontational approach to changing people’s minds

I'll let Tonks confirm or deny but I really don't think he posted the article because he was endorsing a strategy that is a "possibility [that] needs more study" (which you cut out of your quote) and was volunteering himself as one of this board's 3 brown people to do outreach to literal Radiohead fans, who he's talked about this shit with many times, and had many conversations where he did explain his experience and point of view, that sometimes get heated but not always. and which he really shouldn't even have to put himself out there to do, except everyone here is white, so there's nobody else to do it. 

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On 11/8/2016 at 11:58 AM, dunderhead said:

I'm calling 323 to 215 in favor of Clinton. Florida, NC, PA, and NV are going to her. OH, AZ, and Iowa for Trump.

 

You heard it here first.

currently looking back at all the bad election day takes, starting here, in a good faith effort to figure out what’s going on itt rn

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18 minutes ago, sugarface said:

currently looking back at all the bad election day takes, starting here, in a good faith effort to figure out what’s going on itt rn

I think some of what Tonks was referring to was a discussion with Ethan this year about sexual abuse, not just about the general election season when we were all shouting at each other all the time

 

tbf I was arguing with Tonks just as much so I'm not trying to really come for y'all

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On 11/8/2016 at 11:10 PM, eeeezypeezy said:

It was his economic message that sold it though, really. Yes he's got the support of racists of all stripes, but his talk about revitalizing towns that have been abandoned by globalized capital was what did it. Fascism is capitalism in crisis :santa: His program is a terrifying and unfunny joke, but it apparently appealed to more people than a continuation of the pipe dream of a futuristic, financialized global economy. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Phoebe Halliwell said:

I think some of what Tonks was referring to was a discussion with Ethan this year about sexual abuse, not just about the general election season when we were all shouting at each other all the time

oh ok i don’t remember that fight

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33 minutes ago, Phoebe Halliwell said:

shit, I can't wait until a month from now when we get to relive the dc meetup

 

I think it's gonna be a lot more awkward this year

 

ah those salad days when the thrill of looking at each other irl overwrote the bubbling hate underneath

 

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

wanted to follow up on this

 

I remember saying something similar and immediately succumbing to despair

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27 minutes ago, Salem said:

I think reaching out to bigots was part of Ethan's philosophy iirc. 

Whereas the funny thing about actually being a minority or a woman is that reaching out is your default state, as is apologising, and the worst one, which is feeling gratitude when someone actually views you as a human being. 

 

And yet, here we are. 

 

I hate callout culture, honestly. I haven't spoken up about it out of fear of creating an even more toxic metaconversation, and out of fear of personal embarrassment, because due to some serious personal issues it just really fucks me up. Am I the only one? Anybody, show of hands? Somehow I manage to have productive conversations about race and gender and class irl, with all sorts of people, without ending up on the receiving end of haughty, punitive, broad attacks that trigger c-ptsd flashbacks. I'm not up to the job of being a stand-in for every grievance people have with my demographic. Which is gay, communist Larry David ftr.

 

I think about issues of race and class and gender in broad, systemic terms, but when I talk to people openly and honestly irl I find connections all the time. I'm genuinely sorry that my unemotional affect and broad, chin-stroky, think-out-loud writing style causes you to relive your own psychic injuries.

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On 11/9/2016 at 5:25 AM, Salem said:

 

 

dr one and Ethan are too busy celebrating the proles' successful overthrow of the status quo & the unequivocal rejection of globalism, free trade and therefore CAPITALISM itself.

Yeah!!!

Power to the people!!!

FUCK THE ELITES!

 

On 11/9/2016 at 4:18 AM, Salem said:

 

Really.

Cuz the first thing I thought when I heard the news was,

"Fucking Ethan".

 

 

heeeeere we go

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8 minutes ago, eeeezypeezy said:

 

I hate callout culture, honestly. I haven't spoken up about it out of fear of creating an even more toxic metaconversation, and out of fear of personal embarrassment, because due to some serious personal issues it just really fucks me up. Am I the only one? Anybody, show of hands? Somehow I manage to have productive conversations about race and gender and class irl, with all sorts of people, without ending up on the receiving end of haughty, punitive, broad attacks that trigger c-ptsd flashbacks. I'm not up to the job of being a stand-in for every grievance people have with my demographic. Which is gay, communist Larry David ftr.

 

I think about issues of race and class and gender in broad, systemic terms, but when I talk to people openly and honestly irl I find connections all the time. I'm genuinely sorry that my unemotional affect and broad, chin-stroky, think-out-loud writing style causes you to relive your own psychic injuries.

Ethan, I have literally been there with you, and I know how shitty it feels, and even though I don't agree with you, I'm empathetic to what you're probably feeling rn. if shit I'm saying is causing you c-ptsd then I don't hold it against you for not participating and I hope you take care of yourself. I have not always followed my own advice on here and it has really fucked with me in the past.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/cdc-gets-list-of-forbidden-words-fetus-transgender-diversity/2017/12/15/f503837a-e1cf-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.fe8a8ec91791

 

 

Quote

Policy analysts at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta were told of the list of forbidden words at a meeting Thursday with senior CDC officials who oversee the budget, according to an analyst who took part in the 90-minute briefing. The forbidden words are “vulnerable,” “entitlement,” “diversity,” “transgender,” “fetus,” “evidence-based” and “science-based.”

 

 

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On 12/15/2017 at 8:32 PM, eeeezypeezy said:

I hate callout culture, honestly. I haven't spoken up about it out of fear of creating an even more toxic metaconversation, and out of fear of personal embarrassment, because due to some serious personal issues it just really fucks me up. Am I the only one? Anybody, show of hands? Somehow I manage to have productive conversations about race and gender and class irl, with all sorts of people, without ending up on the receiving end of haughty, punitive, broad attacks that trigger c-ptsd flashbacks.


I doubt my hand was one you wanted to see raised, but... []

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27 minutes ago, Salem said:

Okay I'm bored of this post now. Call out culture my ass, Ethan, if you don't want to be called out for saying dumb shit, then shut the fuck up. Know the value of listening to people. Ask questions instead of presenting dumbass theories. I shouldn't have to be repeating all this shit to get through to you.

 

 

"Dumbass theories" smh...

 

I try to come at these things from a more academic perspective and every single time you pounce and accuse me of trying to whitesplain racism to you. I'm largely self-educated, but I'm educated. You're right that I don't know what it's like to experience racism personally, but I do know what it's like to experience homophobia and abuse and poverty, and you're wrong if you think I don't have friends and family who've told me all about their firsthand experiences with racial oppression, and you're wrong if you don't think I've listened and had those perspectives inform my politics. I hate to say this but I think you have a GIGANTIC chip on your shoulder and that makes you read everything I say a certain way. Half the shit you say up there about me infantilizing the white working class and saying we just need education and outreach are a gross oversimplification/misrepresentation of my politics. I AM ONE TOO, m8. The onus is on me to explain myself clearly, and I understand more and more that failing to do so comes across as callousness to people with more skin in the game than I have. You've got me thinking about how I can make it clear that taking the systemic view of racist ideology doesn't mean I excuse individual racists, because I don't. I challenge racist beliefs when I encounter them, I use my white privilege to speak up in spaces where I have that ability and you wouldn't. My "racist plumber" is my neighbor Kurt who lives two doors down from me and does contracting work for a living and barely scrapes by, he was fixing my bathroom sink that had been broken for a year because I couldn't afford to fix it and in exchange I was letting him keep his car in my garage while he worked on it so that the township wouldn't impound it, it ended up being a nice barter. That's "my plumber story." I'm in solidarity with him even though I had to set the record straight a few times during our conversation. I hope I changed his mind, even if only a little bit. He has plenty of advocates, yet he's still getting fucked just like me, just like everyone else in our largely black neighborhood, and building solidarity between the people around here is a project I've been stewing on for a long time. Specific goals, funding, meeting spaces, just the time to actually do any of it, those are all concerns.

 

You obviously cared enough about my election posts to stew on it for a year, and you care enough about my existence as a fellow human being to give a fuck what I think, but then you're still kinda subtweeting me in this post. We OBVIOUSLY disagree about which is the fundamental factor, the material or the ideal. I'm a materialist, you're an idealist. I say economics are fundamental, you say ideology is fundamental. Mine isn't a perspective that's unique to white dudebro DSA people or whatever, read some black power writers. Read some theory, even. Maybe you'll see that I'm not an enemy. Those are my socialist politics, too. You're mad because I think economic anxiety played the biggest role in Trump's election, and that I ignore or actively downplay racism as a factor, right? Well you're right about the first part and wrong about the second part, and we could talk more about that if you really wanted to. We can disagree about that honestly without it being because I didn't grow up in your exact circumstances and don't listen to you. We have a lot in common though. I always try to respond calmly and thoughtfully to you because I respect your perspective, even when I think you're being obtuse or you're just plain wrong and even when I'm actively having to fight a defensive urge to tell you to fuck off, because half the time you seem more interested in cutting me down personally than you do in setting me straight about any actual injustice I perpetuated or committed or correcting me on anything I'm actually wrong about.

 

I don't even know if I want to go through that whole post point-by-point and elaborate on any of it, but like I said, I think there's a lot of misrepresentation or misunderstanding there. Just one example, I don't think racism is a byproduct of capitalism, I think capitalism relies on racism at a fundamental level. I'm pretty sure I've said it exactly this way before: I don't think you can end racism without ending capitalism, but I also don't think ending capitalism would automatically end racism. I think the fundamental drivers of racist ideology are material, but I also know that ideology exerts its own influence on the material. You can never have a clean break. The rest would be you saying things like "I think you'd have universal healthcare by now if it wasn't for racism" and me saying "I don't." I know the value of listening to people, I ask questions of people who can teach me, and you don't have to say another word to me if reading this makes you think I still don't get it. Just reading that post answers just about any question I might have for you about your philosophy and view of history.

 

I still think callout culture sucks in spaces where people interact on a personal level, at least when it isn't applied with surgical precision.

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4 hours ago, Chaddeus Maximus said:

Everything Salem is saying is true, and is something white leftists have to learn and then always remember.

 

One small quibble is that British centrism is hard left in the US. All Democrats and all liberal media treat it as hard left, untouchable, and naive or crazy. American centrism is refusal to raise the minimum wage, insistence that healthcare be market-based and everyone pays for their own insurance, and the dismantling of the social safety net begun by Carter and carried out ruthlessly by Bill Clinton.

 

American centrism is private schools for whites only, and the dismantling of public schools for any purpose other than the school to prison pipeline.

and this is the facts, and it's not white people who have been fighting this forever (and I suggest to all of you that when you get involved you find a group that is at least led by and made up of the people most impacted and not by the people who share a political philosophy most akin to yours). 

 

but Ethan is right, that ultimately this thread isn't about solving the crisis of american politics. it's about a group of people who have come together over the years hashing out their thoughts on the topic. and that group of people is and always has been almost entirely made up of young white people, mostly from America and the uk, and mostly men.

 

there are things I don't have to think about, like that I'm choosing a place to shoot the shit on the internet that is bound to have little to no input from people in other parts of the world, or even from parts of my country that might as well be another world. and of course I am, because that's comfortable for me, these are my people. but...

5 hours ago, Salem said:

Before this? I was lectured about how great passive resistance was, white people acted like the civil rights movement was won by Martin Luthor King giving a few speeches. Now all y'all advocating burning shit to the ground. Shit's given me whiplash. 

 

this is what has changed for me. I was mean to all of you on atease back before y'all were woke and before a time when a thread like this could have existed at all. I cut it out significantly because it did nothing but make most people hate me, and I wanted to be able to fit in here, and I wanted people to like me, and that's the embarrassing truth. now, we all talk about the pervasiveness of white supremacy, the pervasiveness of heterosexism, how men are trash and blah blah blah. do you all really believe that? because y'all seem utterly incapable of grasping the idea that if it's true everywhere, IT MUST BE TRUE HERE. it must be true IN YOU. and saying "yeah I must be participating in this somehow" is the beginning of the journey, not the end of it. and y'all sending me private messages about how you're sorry that it must suck to be A WHITE WOMAN ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD actually does nothing to show me that you understand how you participate in it and that you're committed to changing it. I can't even have a moral high ground here, because I was drawn here for a reason, and because I've done to Tonks the same shit that he's talking about now, and that it's not until #metoo made its way to internet discourse that I saw how much men will not support you, will not stand by you, will not do the work, and cannot be trusted--which y'all say yourselves, only you don't mean it. 

 

it's great if we can have these conversations with people with other experiences than us and really learn and do self-reflection. less so when we bring those conversations back here,  to our safe all-white space, to use them against the brown people who managed to slip through the cracks. these conversations will always be lacking because there is no room here for those voices to exist, and if they're shared it's filtered through white men, and then discussed by white men. and for me or Tonks to point that out, means that we are meanies with chips on our shoulder who just don't understand how to fit in here. it's just a given that considerations for other people can't exist here because it disrupts the function of the board to be a place where young white men can get together and chat about things, and we'll open our arms to you but as long as you play by those rules. 

 

maybe I'm just a meanie and a weirdo and if there were suddenly a windfall of white women finding this board they'd all have a really great time. maybe it's true that this is the best a place like this could ever be, and I have met several of you and like you as people and could definitely be friends with you as individuals. but when y'all get together to make this little club, I can just never be in it. I hope Tonks feels differently and will continue to stay here forever and carry on the lord's work. 

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